Learning Spanish Variations

Spanish words for silverwear
Photo and drawings originally uploaded to Flickr.com by Ryan Greenberg.

A lot of people ask me if they should learn Spanish before coming here, whether for vacation or to live because Argentine Spanish is quite different. I think it really differs depending upon your situation. I was lucky enough to have learned Spanish before coming here so I will give my personal experience and then I will also post an excellent question and a very detailed response that was in the BA Expats forum as well.

I learned Spanish in the university in Miami I learned from teachers from a variety of countries including Spain, Cuba, and  Mexico. I found it to be true to learn the best Spanish possible, but I didn't necessarily need the Vos...although I kind of wish I had since I'm now living in Argentina, but I get by fine without it. Honestly, the clearest accent that I learned was when I did a course in the Yucatan Peninsula of Mexico - with that accent everyone who hears me speak can understand  me just fine; now that I'm living in in Buenos Aires, I've started to pick up the Argentine accent as well.

This was the question in the forum:
Given that Argentinian Spanish is a bit different than other forms of the language, and that instruction in the Argentinian version isn't widely available, what would be acceptable or unacceptable alternatives? Would standard Mexican Spanish be more accepted in Argentina than Castilan form Spain? I have access to tutors who speak both Mexican and Castilian Spanish. What would you suggest?

This was the response:
First, my vote is that you start learning Iberian or "peninsular" Spanish, AKA Castellano, as spoken in and around Madrid. It's not that difficult. Even if your instructor is from México, he/she knows the difference and can easily add that extra conjugation for the pronoun vosotros. He/she can also teach the approximately accurate dialect, thetas and everything. Once you have your foot in the door of peninsular Spanish, you'll most likely find it easier to hear and interpret the multitude of dialects spoken around the rest of the world.

Second, you have posted a very good and very loaded question. Where do you plan to spend the majority of your Spanish-speaking life? If you’re only planning on hanging about Argentina there is no reason not to jump in and sample the local language schools, all of which will teach you to speak the local dialect known as Rioplatense. Rioplatense is a unique dialect spoken primarily by those who live along the Rio Plata in Argentina and Uruguay. In many ways, it’s a smooth-sounding lush dialect of Spanish that incorporates a great deal of intonation of Italian -- Neopolitan Italian, to be specific.  It is also one of the many things that characterize Buenos Aires as distinct from the rest of the Spanish-speaking world. And that, in my opinion, is a good thing, for one of the five primary rules of Linguistics is there are no superior or inferior languages, just different ones.



If you plan to visit Argentina for a few weeks/months and then travel extensively in South/Central America, México, and Spain arriving armed with the ability to speak, (or at least understand the basics of verb formation), for Iberian Spanish is extremely helpful. Before everyone jumps on me it is important to note that each Spanish-speaking country has at least one distinct, if not several, dialects. Argentina is not unique in this respect. However, speculate that if you did not already speak English but wanted to learn, would you prefer to speak and hear English as it is spoken in Great Britain, Central Canada, the “news broadcast” style pronunciation of American English, or would you rather learn to speak as though you’re from rural Mississippi, Alabama, or Georgia? One might also add Texas to that list of regional dialects – say, Midland or Odessa?  Porteños, though not ALL Argentines, speak the Spanish equivalent of a southern, US accent. That is, they use the voseo form, (vosotros in Spain), almost exclusively whether speaking to one person or several people. In addition, Rioplatense has evolved its own rules for conjugating, spelling and pronouncing the second person plural familiar, which is far too complicated to explain here.  Basically, learning Rioplatense Spanish is similar to using “Y’all” in general conversation.  I impart this information not out of disrespect for Porteños, but only to explain that on the most elemental level, that’s one of the major differences you’ll encounter when deciphering Rioplatense instead of the strong, marked dialect of urban México. It will also prepare you for several linguistic surprises as you listen, learn, and speak Spanish in BsAs.

A second glaring difference between Rioplatense and standardized Spanish is the substitution of a "sha" (voiced) or “j” (unvoiced) sound in place of the "y" sound in such worlds a lluvia (shuvia), llamar (shamar), ajer (ayer), etc. The “sha” sound lends itself to the aspiration or elision of fricatives and dropping the r sound in verb infinitives. In most of the Spanish speaking world such elisions of the final r is considered a sign of being uneducated. However, in the Southern Hemisphere this aspect of Rioplatense is recognized more as a unique accent marker spoken by Argentines and Uruguayans. It is also responsible for the more fluid sound of the dialect which many people regard as so suave and sensual. The problem occurs when trying to distinguish between “se cayo” (he fell) and “se calló” (he shut up or became silent). In standardized Spanish "cayo" is pronounced with a short y and "calló" is pronounced with a long y. In Rioplatense they are pronounced exactly the same, with a j or sha sound.  So, be prepared to wrestle with the “yeismo” or blending of sounds represented by ll (the palatal lateral / ʎ /) and y (historically the palatal approximate /j/) which in Buenos Aires have fused into one. (Damn it, I tried not to be too technical, but I are [sic] a holder of a couple of them thar advanced degrees in Linguistics and Anthropology.)



And for those of you who can’t possibly stand reading any more: Rioplatense is unique enough from standard Spanish that it is viewed by many linguists to be rapidly evolving from the merging of late 19th Century criollo Spanish, (combination pidgin and patois versions of French/Italian/English with Castellano), to eventually become its own language. However, that phenomenon is not expected to occur for about another 100 years. Just observe the sinage on buses, billboards, all advertisements and anywhere the imperative is used as a warning or to grab your attention and you’ll notice a big difference between Rioplatense and standard pedestrian Spanish.

Comments

[Patri]

Hello, I'm from Buenos Aires, Argentina. I would like to say that Hector is wrong when he says that "No school in Argentina or Uruguay allows their students to use vos." I don't know where he got that information. "Vos" is part of our everyday language and we never use "tu". Students use "vos" amongst them but they say "usted" when talking to a teacher.
Saludos

[moving to argentina]

Thanks for the various feedback that has been posted. I would like to remind everyone that except for my comments in the beginning of the post, the majority of the material came from a different forum, and was intended to get a nice discussion going about different people's experiences, viewpoints, etc. I'm glad to see so many viewpoints.

Perhaps the people who have challenged the information could speak of how they know about the language so much, or where they are from?

Thanks
Laura

[Hector]

There isn't such a thing as the Spanish language. Spanish is an adjective, not a language. It's a mistake that's been perpetuated for a long long time.

People in Spain do not speak Castillian Spanish. They simply speak Castillian. Hispanics in the Americas speak "american" castillian. In Spain there are four official languages and Castillian is one of them. Many Spaniards speak Castillian as a second language.

Vos is not the singular of vosotros. Vosotros is the informal plural form of tú. Vos is what the uneducated people of Southern Spain used, believing that it was the singular for vosotros. It was brought to the Americas by the first Spanish settlers who came from the Southern Spain after expelling the arabs who invaded and dominated that region for eight centuries. Italians came to Argentina years later, adding an italian accent to the Castillian spoken in the region of La Plata.

No school in Argentina or Uruguay allows their students to use vos. Tú is what teachers expect their students to use. "Voseo" is not unique to Argentina. Paraguay, Uruguay, Central America, Chiapas (Mexico) and Chile.
In Argentina "ll" and "y" are always pronounced as the french "j".

[Gail]

Enjoyed reading your viewpoint about the language. Our first year here, four years ago, was interesting because everytime I talked about "spanish" I was corrected and they would politely repeat "castellano" until I got the hint. It didn't matter who I was talking to, kids, adults, rich or poor, they would all quietly say "castellano". I came here with nothing in spanish and the first year was very interesting. I took lessons from a great teacher, but she wouldn't speak any english, and it was tough. I didn't know for about 6 months what this "vos" was...I couldn't figure out where they were getting some of their verbs...podés, querés...anyway, after four years, I'm doing better, but it wasn't easy for a 50 year old to change languages. Our daughters had it a little rough for the first two years in a bilingual school; then they begged us to go to an all spanish school and boy did they take off...they are amazing...my husband and I are always saying...how do you say this "in street language"? Anyway, your site is interesting. Thanks.

[Jessica]

Can anyone recommend an audio-learning system for Castillan Spanish? I am visiting Barcelona next week and want to listen on the plane- better late than never! I do like the Earworms Rapid Learning Vol 1 I downloaded on iTunes, but want to go a bit farther in depth. THANKS!

[Chris]

sorry, for some reason my comments didn't show up, hopefully they should now that I'm using *'s instead of >'s

______________

If you plan to visit Argentina for a few weeks/months and then travel extensively in South/Central America, México, and Spain arriving armed with the ability to speak, (or at least understand the basics of verb formation), for Iberian Spanish is extremely helpful. Before everyone jumps on me it is important to note that each Spanish-speaking country has at least one distinct, if not several, dialects. Argentina is not unique in this respect. However, speculate that if you did not already speak English but wanted to learn, would you prefer to speak and hear English as it is spoken in Great Britain, Central Canada, the “news broadcast” style pronunciation of American English, or would you rather learn to speak as though you’re from rural Mississippi, Alabama, or Georgia? One might also add Texas to that list of regional dialects – say, Midland or Odessa? Porteños, though not ALL Argentines, speak the Spanish equivalent of a southern, US accent.

****I think this comparison is a bit strange-- a more appropriate one would be standard Australian accent, or something similar. In face, in the Spanish speaking world, an Argentine accent is a sign of education (sort of a German accent when speaking English, or an English accent from England). Historically the Argentines that have immigrated to other parts of the world, and specifically to Spain, have been from an educated class-- which you can note as BA has a highly over educated population. Also, with pronuncation being different in Buenos Aires versus other parts of the country, it's really the Buenos Aires accent you're discussing here-- versus an accent from places like Neuquen (where they sound Chilean). With that said, to call Spanish of each Spanish speaking country a dialect... that's only true if the way in which you're using "dialect" would apply to Irish English versus American or Indian (all of which are mutually intelligable, except for some spelling differences).****

That is, they use the voseo form, (vosotros in Spain), almost exclusively whether speaking to one person or several people.

****The form "vos" in Argentine Spanish doesn't relate to the vosotros form from Spain-- that would be the equivalent of the "tu" form. That said, the appropriate comparison from vosotros would be ustedes.****

In addition, Rioplatense has evolved its own rules for conjugating, spelling and pronouncing the second person plural familiar, which is far too complicated to explain here. Basically, learning Rioplatense Spanish is similar to using “Y’all” in general conversation.

****The Vos form isn't an Argentine invention-- here's a wikipedia article which does a good job with the history of Vos
"This pronoun comes from the Old Spanish form vos, which was the formal expression for the second person of the singular (in contrast with the modern usted), while vosotros was the formal expression for the second person of the plural. Nevertheless, vos is now an informal form, used instead of tú. During the Middle Ages the second person formal became Vuestra Merced (your grace) and vos became a second familiar second person along with or replaciong tu. This was the situation when Castilian was brought to the Rio de la Plata (Buenos Aires and Montevideo) area and Chile. In time vos lost currency in Spain but survived in Argentina and Uruguay. Vuestra Merced evolved into usted. Note that the term "vosotros" is a combined form of two words meaning literally "you others" (vos otros) while the term "nosotros" comes from the combined form of two words literally meaning "we others" (nos otros) because of the confusion caused by the change in the use of vos and tu. It seems to bear some resemblance to the use of "you all" (y'all) in the English of the Southern United States."
The article also lists other countries which retained the antiquated form:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voseo
*****

I impart this information not out of disrespect for Porteños, but only to explain that on the most elemental level, that’s one of the major differences you’ll encounter when deciphering Rioplatense instead of the strong, marked dialect of urban México. It will also prepare you for several linguistic surprises as you listen, learn, and speak Spanish in BsAs.

****While addressing this issue specifically is important for foreigners considering coming to Argentina, and I appreciate the work you've done on your blog, I would reconsider this previous section. Especially, as you know, the Argentine people are proud of their language and accent, and I wouldn't want people misinformed on the very important subject.****

_________

[Chris]

If you plan to visit Argentina for a few weeks/months and then travel extensively in South/Central America, México, and Spain arriving armed with the ability to speak, (or at least understand the basics of verb formation), for Iberian Spanish is extremely helpful. Before everyone jumps on me it is important to note that each Spanish-speaking country has at least one distinct, if not several, dialects. Argentina is not unique in this respect. However, speculate that if you did not already speak English but wanted to learn, would you prefer to speak and hear English as it is spoken in Great Britain, Central Canada, the "news broadcast" style pronunciation of American English, or would you rather learn to speak as though you’re from rural Mississippi, Alabama, or Georgia? One might also add Texas to that list of regional dialects – say, Midland or Odessa? Porteños, though not ALL Argentines, speak the Spanish equivalent of a southern, US accent.

<<>>

That is, they use the voseo form, (vosotros in Spain), almost exclusively whether speaking to one person or several people.

<<>>

In addition, Rioplatense has evolved its own rules for conjugating, spelling and pronouncing the second person plural familiar, which is far too complicated to explain here. Basically, learning Rioplatense Spanish is similar to using "Y’all" in general conversation.

<<

"This pronoun comes from the Old Spanish form vos, which was the formal expression for the second person of the singular (in contrast with the modern usted), while vosotros was the formal expression for the second person of the plural. Nevertheless, vos is now an informal form, used instead of tú. During the Middle Ages the second person formal became Vuestra Merced (your grace) and vos became a second familiar second person along with or replaciong tu. This was the situation when Castilian was brought to the Rio de la Plata (Buenos Aires and Montevideo) area and Chile. In time vos lost currency in Spain but survived in Argentina and Uruguay. Vuestra Merced evolved into usted. Note that the term "vosotros" is a combined form of two words meaning literally "you others" (vos otros) while the term "nosotros" comes from the combined form of two words literally meaning "we others" (nos otros) because of the confusion caused by the change in the use of vos and tu. It seems to bear some resemblance to the use of "you all" (y'all) in the English of the Southern United States."

The article also lists other countries which retained the antiquated form:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voseo

>>>

I impart this information not out of disrespect for Porteños, but only to explain that on the most elemental level, that’s one of the major differences you’ll encounter when deciphering Rioplatense instead of the strong, marked dialect of urban México. It will also prepare you for several linguistic surprises as you listen, learn, and speak Spanish in BsAs.

<<>>

[Pass the Torch]

Oooooh! I want to go here! Thank you so much for posting. I'm participating in the travel carnival too. Here's my reminiscent post about motorhome travel with my mom.

http://kellycurtis.blogspot.com/2006/06/blue-streak-mom-and-me_21.html

[Neko]

My girlfriend(She's from Andalucía, Spain) tells me the same thing about the "sha" thing that you mentioned before. I never realized of that before I met her.

Later, in the first year of my carrer at the UBA, noticed that my peruvian and mexican classmates don't pronounce the "ll" as a "sh" like me.

Hope my english wasn't too difficult to read ^^u

Saludos!

[moving to argentina]

I agree with you Elizabeth, that is why I'm glad that I learned the Spanish that I did. I still vote for learning from a Mexican teacher. I remember in the university with my Castillian teacher I was always telling him that I wanted to really get the Iberian accent down. He would patiently tell me that the most important thing was to learn Spanish first and foremost so that you could communicate and the rest would come after.

Still I thought it was interesting, the explanation of rioplatense, and a different point of view about learning Spanish, which is why I posted the full question and response.

[ryan]

wow. great information. i'm from oklahoma and leave in february to study abroad at the university of belgrano for six months. i know spanish fairly well but am excited/nervous as can be about the long learning experience ahead. love the perspective you give :)

[elizabeth]

I would argue the other side of this discussion. Learn Spanish (they say castallano here) from a Latin American Spanish speaker (Mexican or Peruvian would be the most representative if you are studying before you get here, otherwise an Argentine teacher is fine). The Argentine accent will come with time and you can read about the porteno dialect and its idiomas. If you are living, studying or traveling in South or Central American, Latin American Spanish makes sense. Espanol (from Spain) sounds different, has more formal pronouns, has some distintive vocabulary and infers some meaningful cultural differences. Its like the difference between American English and really proper upperclass British English.